Curse

Komes I · Oct 06, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Ok hee is what i think.
By the time we destroy Great Destroyer, Dwarves become stoned. Norns go South and Humans are spead on many lands. Now one human nation, Ascalon, the one which has lost so many things. Guild Wars before searing, searing and constant Charr raidning, plus some of its people seeked refuge in other lands there couldn't be many Ascalonians left to defend their nation. Maybe they would have had strenght to resist Kryta since Kryta is ravaged by civil war it self but they surely wouldn't have strenght to fight whole race of beasts! Sunspears got wtfpwned in Gandara and pretty much evrywhere in Elona so even if Koruna armies, Vabbi guards and Istan shorewatchers joined alltogether in one army it wouldn't be easy to fight off undead. Undead can return to safe grounds in Desolation where not many mortals can come, and rest and regain their powers unlike humans in Elona. Human lands ravaged by Margonites could be easily raided. Lightbringers maybe powerfull but they are not an army. They are agents. They spie, assassinate nad safeguard. They are much like Partisans in Yugoslavia in WWII. They can't risk a fight on open field but they can hit and run. So i am not very suprised that Elona fell. Palawa has a Giant Army. Plus he corupted the river Elon for Massive Damage. Poisoned water in desert plains of elona aren't really suitable for life.

Oh and i can't wait for expansion pack to come out so we can go south to Cantha and chek out cool Millitary (comunist like) nation. It has to be total win!

Vanessa Dwager · Oct 06, 2007, 10:44 AM // 10:44

If you guys noticed in the gate of desolation with the wurms at the end the cinematic showed a palawa joko unable to get his men lined up immediately and the Heroes considered him no threat for the time being. I think it'd be pretty easy to forget something I thought pathetic while a god of darkness breathed down my neck.

I also find the image of my character in a wheelchair commanding undead minions disturbing and sad.

draxynnic · Oct 06, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Komes I

{snip}

With Ascalon, yes. Not so much due to the Guild Wars, but with their population base so devastated by the Searing, they really would have needed someway to keep the Charr back apart from force of arms to hold out.

In Elona's case, however: Apart from that Palawa was freed, I don't think the events of Nightfall really had that big an effect on weakening Elona. There was sixty years between Kormir's ascension and Palawa taking control - three times the period between the world wars - and I didn't get the impression that the civilian population was that heavily affected - probably about as much as WW1 and the following flu epidemic affected the real world. The militaries of the three provinces would have had time to recover.

It's probably just a case of there being no Turai Ossa this time around.

Azael Durge · Oct 06, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Its most likely down to a combination of a few unmentioned things:
1. Everyone was arsing around fighting the enemys and not bothering to get married and make children.
2. By the time everyone had enough time to settle down they had realised that all these years wearing very restricting underwear had caused them to become infertile.
3. Alesia the most useless of all monks and cannon fodder most likely ruined any great tacticle advantage.
4. Everyone had immagrated to krytan because of the nicer weather and better paid jobs.
5. The krytans couldnt get any jobs in the army due to all these immigrants coming and stealing their jobs.
6.And due to the fact that no one was having children, lack of pay in kryta and the fact anyone who survied didnt want to do any more work there were no more schools/acedmys/military training centres built.

And thats not mentioning the rising prices of gold because they xulnian agents were cut off and no one could speak their canthan version of chinese.

GlassShardx · Oct 07, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Also keep in mind, the sunspears weren't really that effective to begin with, aside from a few heroes. They were devastated by the failed attack on Varesh in Gandara, and I'm asssuming they and the order of whispers took further losses from the margonites and Abadon before the heroes were able to stop them.

angmar_nite · Oct 07, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

We were crushing them at Gandara until the demons popped up.

draxynnic · Oct 07, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by angmar_nite

We were crushing them at Gandara until the demons popped up.

And if it wasn't scripted, we probably would have. It was just 2 Blades of Corruption, Varesh (who probably didn't have the be-reborn-as-a-paragon thing she did when we finally filled her, and probably didn't have all the unique skills she does pre-rebirth either), the Hunger, and a handful of Kournans versus a full party, Kormir, and a few dozen Sunspear archers (with a few warriors mixed in).

Even if they were boss Blades of Corruption, I'd have given it a go.

Dorvan919 · Oct 07, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

yes this did actually kinda annoy me because if my character can kill the lich, shiro, abbadon and the great destroyer then wots palawa compared to them? i mean what is soo good about undead? if we can kill them in gates of desolation why couldnt we kill them in palawa's return.

Mournblade · Oct 08, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

All the monks were on strike again.

Iuris · Oct 08, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

The situation is not as simple as it sounds at first thought.

While as the heroes we are are the ones that made the crucial moves, we must keep in mind that they were not alone in it. While the support is not explicit, if read carefully enough, it is easy to discover how we were aided:

-the heroes escorted the refugees across the shiverpeaks with help from the dwarves (not direct help, but the stone summit were fighting the Deldrimor dwarves and thus couldn't focus on the humans). Not to mention that the remainder of the ascalon army kept the charr at bay, acting as a rear guard.

-The white mantle helped provide safety for the refugees while the heroes split off on solo (unburdening the heroes so they could go on).

-the shining blade helped the heroes fight the white mantle after the betrayal is discovered, and later the undead controlled by the Vizier were a help, too.

-the heroes RUN AWAY from the mursaat into the desert. In the desert, they face no organized resistance, but only tests by the gods to determine worthiness.

-the heroes return north into a triple war zone: the Mursaat are butchering both Deldrimor dwarves and the Stone summit (with the shining blade already defeated, or at least scattered). Both the Stone summit and the Deldiromr dwarves help with the situation: the Deldrimor actively support while the Stone summit tie down the Mursaat.

-the heroes reach the Ring of fire with support of a dwarven contingent and are boosted by the Vizier

-as the Vizier turns, the titans storm the continent. Fortunately, the lich sends them out after the main population centers instead of having them all chase us down, so we can freely skulk around, close the entry portals and assassinate the Lich. Meanwhile, the titans cause major headaches for the armies on the continent (Mursaat, Lion guard, Ascalon army, Shining blade remnants, Deldrimor dwarves,...). The titan quests are what we need to get them down - andd we are assisting armies there. (remember, all is scaled down for these games)

OK, Factions:

Factions is simple. The heroes are the tip of the spear, but always supported by the armies of the empire and eventually both Luxons and Kurzicks. We may be the ones that go after Shiro himself, but the armies of the afflicted are held at bay by the imperial army, and by the time of the Shiro'ken the Luxon and Kurzick reinforcements arrive, too.

Nightfall is a bit more developed:

-you start out as the sunspears policing the island of Istan.

-the might of the sunspears assaults Gandara, and are crushed. Most dead, the rest scattered. While the Kournans scour the lands, the sunspears hide and run away (remember the secondary quests).

-Istan can rely on its fleet for defense (remember, Istan is not the same as the Sunspear order), so the few remaining sunspears head north to recruit the Vabbians to their cause. They manage to foil the preparatory operations (otherwise, Vabbi would face the kournan military and the margonites with one prince assassinated (Bokka) and one hiding in the hidden city (leaving the armies leaderless) and rampaging heket (the heroes break up the alliance between the heket and the kournans). In the end, the combined might of the Sunspears, the vabbian military and the djinn is enough to prevent the Kournans from ransacking the lands (Jennur horde, Nundu bay, Attack at the Kodash... - note that there is some significant damage done in spite of the succesful defense), but then, we know that Varesh is actually more interested in just passing through to the north - her true goal is ruins of Morah, where the last of the rituals must be completed.

-now, forget the whole junundu debacle. What Palawa Joko really offers the sunspears is his armies - they are what holds back the margonite hordes (read the quests over there). Without them, the sunspears would face the whole might of the hordes, which would be a lot more trouble. While Palawa Joko may not have control of all the undead yet, what he has is enough to hold the margonites back. While the threat he poses provided he returns to full power is recognized, we must keep in mind - he is an ally.

-Realm of torment is the only area where we fight without support. It would seem that the sunspears there are just a small team penetrating into the heart of the enemy, destroying some infrastructure (Soul dam in Gate of Pain) on the way. The victory acts alone are apparently all about assassination (killing the generals in GoMadness, killing other key figures in quests, killing abaddon).

EotN, here, the whole game is about gathering support, so I'll not go into the details.

Essentially, the heroes are heroes who performed the key deeds, but they were not alone.

Some Guru Named Kai · Oct 08, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

After all the fighting and saving the world, all the heroes took a nap. When we woke up, the world had quietly turned into a shithole.

draxynnic · Oct 08, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

-Realm of torment is the only area where we fight without support. It would seem that the sunspears there are just a small team penetrating into the heart of the enemy, destroying some infrastructure (Soul dam in Gate of Pain) on the way. The victory acts alone are apparently all about assassination (killing the generals in GoMadness, killing other key figures in quests, killing abaddon).

Actually, even then, the heroes found that the gatekeepers of the Realm of Torment, the Forgotten and allied souls that joined them after ending up in Torment, while having been put on the back foot - er, tail - still hold many strategic locations within Torment. Imagine trying to go all the way from from the Mouth of Torment to Abaddon in one long instance with no outposts to stop, recover DP, and adjust skills along the way...

Which just reinforces the point. To use your metaphor, at almost every step on the way the heroes were just the tip of the spear. At the times when the various events occur, the head of the spear has started to rust (seems a decent analogy for aging) but, more importantly, the shaft has been cut away.

angmar_nite · Oct 08, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Alright. Fine. Where was the Kurzick and Luxon support? I find it hard to believe they disappeared. And kuunavang too. What happened to him? But the Emperor with his millions of gold (considerably few lol. Quite a lot of us are richer), was able to raise an army to: beat the am fah. Beat the Jade Brother hood. Beat the Kurzicks IN Echovald, beat the luxons on their own turf as well. and take Shing Jea island which is defended by the wisest and most powerful single people in the land. Along with the Tengu.

The White Mantle were gone, fine, the lionguard had to protect the refugees. What was the Ebon Vanguard doing at this time? The Ascalon Vanguard? The Ascalon Army?

The Sunspears should have thrived in post war Elona. Espicially now that they have the backing of not 2 but 3 armies. Also, are you telling me Glint would have sat idly while her domain was overran?

There's the support. Now lets add our heroes.

8 people + Shing Jea profs + henchies, at the head of all those armies? Against a guy who fuels his whole army with the same amount of gold I use on one guy? I dunno how many 1.5k sets 3000k can buy... (actually i do), but not enough to overwhelm all the heroes at the helm of two of the most militarily experienced nations in the land.

As for Ascalon, let's look at it this way. We were weaker when us + ascalon army + vanguard defeated the Charr ( I mean before crossing shivs). Both the army and the vanguard would have taken losses right? But then the EBON vanguard, recently befriended can fill out in place of the lost men. And throw in heroes who were stronger than they used to be to get this equation:

4 Young unlearned heroes + Ascalon Army + Ascalon Vanguard < 4 Extremely experienced and skilled heroes + Weakened Ascalon Army + Weakened Ascalon Vanguard + Ebon Vanguard

And last but not least, The heroes are spearmarshals, legendary lightbringers, the finest commanders in all of Elona. They should be able to beat Palawa Joko (they did earn the wurms) when backed by all the mentioned armies.

The Shelf · Oct 08, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by angmar_nite

What was the Ebon Vanguard doing at this time? The Ascalon Vanguard? The Ascalon Army?

I was under the impression that the Ebon Vanguard was a relatively small band of troops who decided to harass the Charr while the main Ascalon army defended the city. I imagine they were still doing that when Ascalon got wiped out. They would not have made a significant difference in a final battle and served Ascalon better with their raiding tactics in the north. In fact, if not for us in GW:EN the Ebon Vanguard probably would have been wiped out completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angmar_nite

As for Ascalon, let's look at it this way. We were weaker when us + ascalon army + vanguard defeated the Charr ( I mean before crossing shivs). Both the army and the vanguard would have taken losses right? But then the EBON vanguard, recently befriended can fill out in place of the lost men. And throw in heroes who were stronger than they used to be to get this equation:

Wait, when did we defeat the Charr? All we really did in post-Searing was push them back out the wall, and that was only because they weren't expecting a sneak attack. The kingdom of Ascalon north of the wall was still overrun with Charr even though we completed a few quests that hurt them a little. Are you forgetting why we crossed the Shiverpeaks to begin with? Even Rurik knew that we could no longer expect to defeat the Charr and should flee instead.

You're right about one thing, though. The Ascalon army and vanguard took significant losses both during and after the searing. Once we pushed the Charr back to the wall, I'm sure it was all the army and vanguard could do just to hold it for as long as they did. And as I mentioned above, I really doubt the Ebon Vanguard was able to help them, as they were busy harassing/distracting the Charr in the north. But even then, the Ebon Vanguard was reduced in numbers as well.

Ascalon was doomed the moment the Charr seared the land. All we ever did was prolong inevitable defeat for Ascalon.

Komes I · Oct 08, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

@The Shelf
Couldn't agree more mate.

Now we are heroes but being powerfull hero doesnt mean you and your brothers in arms (who are also heroes) can defeate whole race! Race of beasts whose only way to survive is to hunt down and as such they are very experienced.

Oh and one more thing, i think it is offtopic but it still considers events that happened after the curent Guild Wars time. There is a mention of a lonley fortres in the far south of Ascalon that is conected to Kryta with Asura Gate. Now that fortres, i assume is builded somewhere near Crystal Desert. That may explain so many Ascalon Soliders in The Dragon's Lair. This fort i am speaking of used to fight of Orrian Armies invading Ascalon and to make a place of rest for Ascalonian armies atacking Orr. I find it really cool that we would have a chance to see sothern parts of ascalon cause i have always wanted to find more about them.

Mordakai · Oct 08, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Komes I

Oh and one more thing, i think it is offtopic but it still considers events that happened after the curent Guild Wars time. There is a mention of a lonley fortres in the far south of Ascalon that is conected to Kryta with Asura Gate. Now that fortres, i assume is builded somewhere near Crystal Desert. That may explain so many Ascalon Soliders in The Dragon's Lair. This fort i am speaking of used to fight of Orrian Armies invading Ascalon and to make a place of rest for Ascalonian armies atacking Orr. I find it really cool that we would have a chance to see sothern parts of ascalon cause i have always wanted to find more about them.

I don't think it's off topic at all. It is the one beacon of hope for Ascalon...

Meet you at Ebonhawke.

draxynnic · Oct 09, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by angmar_nite

But then the EBON vanguard, recently befriended can fill out in place of the lost men.

The Ebon Vanguard IS part of the Ascalon Army, sent out to disrupt Charr supply lines sometime between Prophecies and EOTN. In fact, I believe it's stated in the lore that it's actually formed from or drawn from the ranks of the Ascalon Vanguard.

It recruits from freed and escaped Charr prisoners, yes, but it's probably taken casualties along the way as well.

blue.rellik · Oct 09, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

And if it wasn't scripted, we probably would have. It was just 2 Blades of Corruption, Varesh (who probably didn't have the be-reborn-as-a-paragon thing she did when we finally filled her, and probably didn't have all the unique skills she does pre-rebirth either), the Hunger, and a handful of Kournans versus a full party, Kormir, and a few dozen Sunspear archers (with a few warriors mixed in).

Even if they were boss Blades of Corruption, I'd have given it a go.

That was just for show. There's a difference with lore-wise and gameplay-wise

Gameplay wise a couple of lvl 20s could smoke the entire Charr army in Great Northern Wall but storywise, we would have been owned

draxynnic · Oct 09, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

That was just for show. There's a difference with lore-wise and gameplay-wise

Gameplay wise a couple of lvl 20s could smoke the entire Charr army in Great Northern Wall {snip}

Only in normal mode.

(But yes, I did have fun with that with a level 20 W/E. "Did you just try tanking the entire Charr army?" "Yes... and then you had to end the mission before I could collect all the loot...")

Still, it would have been better if they'd shown, say, the Drought and some other boss demon instead of two Blades. Anyone who did the original Gain Zenmai quest would have already known that even level 28 Blades aren't that tough.

blue.rellik · Oct 09, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Very few AI warriors mobs are dangerous. Only ones that spring to mind are Aatxes and possibly Abyssals, everything else is too easily countered